lacquer doesn't seem to be going on smoothly?
I have a fireplace mantle that I am finishing. I stained it and am now trying to put lacquer on it. It is not large (only 5' long and about 12 deept). I put first coat on and it looked great. put second coat on and it did not go on smoothly. Since it is so small and the area that is seen (on underside) is only about 4 deep, I could do this area rather quickly and then made long strokes across entire piece as they direct on minwax site. but it just doesn't look smooth when wet and when dried had areas where lacquer was thicker and uneven. not terrible but not what I was expecting. any advice on proper application? I sanded it with 220, reapplied but same issue. I told wife to get me natural brushes, but what she got is not labeled and I think it is synthetic. but it says for all kinds of paint. could brush be issue? Synthetic bristles can be dissolved by solvent based products so natural bristles are in order. Why lacquer? When spraying, lacquer is easiest but with a brush I would have used polyurethane. I chose lacquer after looking at minwax site and watching the videos on it and other info on web. said lacquer gives a traditional hand rubbed look and is clear (polyurethane can amber although I am using red oak stained jacobean-dark brown so maybe not an issue?) and maintained with just furniture polish like pledge. I got satin finish. like I said, first coat looked super, wished I could have been done. I cleaned brush with Kleen Strip paint clean up. says it cleans oil based products from painting tools and is safe for all brush types. I did think it was strange that after only about 5 min of applying and then when cleaning brush it seems like the lacquer would gum up into balls on the bristles as soon as I put in the cleaner? it has been long time since I have done finishing of wood (9th grade shop class-30 years ago!) so I am not sure do this and what to expect. That is why I watched the videos on minwax site. this last attempt just has very wavy finsih to it. not even application even though I used long stokes across entire piece to blend it and smooth it as directed. it just seems like the lacquer is so thick and doesn't smooth out evenly even though first coat did dry smooth. guess try sanding and getting new natural brush and have another go. luckily this is the underside so not as important. I am hoping to perfect technique for the top side. just checked-the brush I used did say for all paints. wife bought several in different size, types but couldn't remember which one I did choose Sorry, I think you're going to have to wait for others like Marksr and BCLacquer, I just don't have the experience with lacquer to help you. You should be using the recommended thinner to clean your brush. Sounds like that cleaner you use fouled something up. Lacquer is not paint. Did you sand the finish before your second coatr and did you remove all the dust from the surface? If you can't get the lacquer to go on nicely, try the Polycrylic. That is also a clear finish and water based so you clean up with soap and water. drooplug - my understanding of lacquer is sanding is not required between coats since it dries as a product instead of curing and the application of the next coat 're-wets' the existing surface. Am I wrong and lacquer should be scuff sanded like polyurethane? I did not sand between coats. specifically states that sanding is not necessary that coats chemically bond to each other. now after second coat was not smooth, I tried sanding before third and it was not smooth either so sanded and applied fourth. OK, so you only ran into problems after you cleaned the brush for the first time? If so, I'm wondering if you contaminated your lacquer when you put the brush back in it. actually, after cleaned brush first time, it still seemed like had a lot of gunk in it-the gummed up balls of lacquer I guess- so I thoroughly washed it with water and brush comb too. so doubt had traces of the thinner in it before I put it back in the can of lacquer. Lacquers get cleaned up [or thinned] with lacquer thinner. Your Kleen Strip paint thinner is just a version of mineral spirits and is NOT compatible with lacquer! While synthetic brushes can be used in solvent based paints, a natural bristle brush is always better. Mineral spirits won't hurt a synthetic bristle brush but lacquer thinner might. I'd sand the existing lacquer smooth and then apply another coat of lacquer preferably with a natural china bristle brush. If you must use the same brush, clean it first with lacquer thinner. Use enough thinner to clean the brush but don't let it soak in lacquer thinner. thanks guys. here is what I have done. went and got lacquer thinner and a china bristle brush. I will do as you said marksr and sand it and reapply. did just read about not soaking brush as you mentioned. didn't know that. I thought OK to just let it soak. so will try this all and report back. drooplug - my understanding of lacquer is sanding is not required between coats since it dries as a product instead of curing and the application of the next coat 're-wets' the existing surface. Am I wrong and lacquer should be scuff sanded like polyurethane? Turns out you are right about sanding not being necessary. It's best to follow the label. I just assumed it would be needed because so many finishes require it. I do know that most products labeled as lacquer are not actually lacquer. They are modern versions made to look like the original finish. Just for added info, not all the finished that cure need to be sanded either. In those instances, sanding is only needed to flatten and to remove imperfections. well I did everything mentioned above but results have actually gotten worse. see photo. this was taken about 1/2 hour after application. It has improved as it dried, but still very noticeable. I applied from left to right. notice the lines where I would stop and put more lacquer on brush. It only took about two minutes to do the board that wil be visible and only part concerned about (4 top to bottom on photo and 5' left to right)after applied all I tried to make continuous stroke from left to right, but it would not smooth out. it is like it is already set up that quickly? do you think I put too much on and didn't work it in enough? I know I saw somewhere it said to not overwork it, so I didn't want to do that. Lacquer dries so quickly that I RARELY will ever use a brushable lacquer because lacquer by definition just isn't very brushable- the solvents in it evaporate so quickly that it makes it about impossible to do a large surface without brush strokes. Sandpaper gums up too quickly on lacquer so what I have had good success with is a synthetic steel wool pad (lacquer pad). And the only reason to use it is to remove imperfections and minor amounts of dust that got in the finish before it dried. I don't think that even it would remove the giant ridges created by your brush strokes. I know you tried to move fast but even our fastest sometimes isn't fast enough. You can't tip off lacquer like you would paint, because it tacks up too quickly. So going through it one last time was a big mistake. You need to move fast which usually it means brushing all the way down the length and then back again to try to keep a wet edge, and don't overlap too much. If you try to divide the table into 1/3's or 1/4's (going left to right, like you tried) you end up running the brush through lacquer that's getting tacky. You never want to tip off lacquer. I don't really know what I'd recommend at this point, the way it looks. For minor buildup I've scraped with a razor blade or block plane blade (almost like using a paint scraper) to remove most of the ridge of excess lacquer. That might be your best bet but trying this for the first time you'd need to be very careful that you didn't scratch too deep, and cut into the finish. I hold the blade with both hands, with the top angled slightly toward me, then gently drag it toward me. If you are careful and apply just the right pressure it will really only remove excess lacquer from the ridge. Your next coat of finish will then melt any imperfections away. You could also try thinning the finish by brushing on straight lacquer thinner, but it could also create a smeary mess. So I don't know which direction to steer you at this point. Lacquer, as with many finishes, usually turns out best when it's sprayed. Maybe the best thing to do would be to lightly scrape, thin your lacquer with lacquer thinner, and apply one coat of that using the technique I mentioned (all the way left to right, starting from the far side, then moving toward you until you're finished) and see if the light scraping and thinned coat helps smooth things out. I agree. You need to remove the imperfections before reapplying. The scraping recommendation is a good. If you can't scrape it, try sandpaper with a block. It will clog the paper so make sure you keep it fresh. wish I had known this about lacquer before I chose it! of course they don't mention that on minwax site. so this is the bottom layer (structural) of my mantle. you will only see the underside of this piece-and only the 4 of red oak not the rest which is poplar. now my top layer is all red oak. if I use lacquer I will likely spray it but what about using polyurethane on it? what are pros/cons of that vs lacquer as far as ease of use, product appearance, maintenance, etc? Polyurethane is nice. It does have a slight amber tone to it as you had mentioned. If you don't want that, use the Polycrylic. They both go on easily. I use polyurethane all the time. I like the amber tint from the oil based but, as drooplug mentioned, the water based will be clear. Sand lightly with 220 grit between coats for good adhesion. update. I got some spray on lacquer. I sanded the finish and was able to get those brush marks out. I then used the spray on. but it didn't seem to coat well? I sprayed and some areas just didn't seem like they were wet? I tried holding it closer but still the same. I dried without any runs or marks,but the finish is just not uniform-some areas are dull and some glossy. I tried to sand lightly with 220 and then used 0000 steel wool, but still not uniform. on another piece I stained it and then tried the polycrylic. goes on very easily. dried without brush marks. sanded lightly between coats. but then started to notice lot of bubbles. sanded them out and another coat with bubbles? looked it up and I am not doing the things usually associated with bubbles-shaking can or stirring vigorously to introduce bubbles, scraping the brush on side of can too firmly?, going back and forth. I went one way and then tipped off. another thing is that the polycrylic really seemed to bring out grain. really didn't like that and even after 5 coats still not smooth. read that due to the water base causes this, but usually able to knock it down with sanding . but didn't seem to do so? Assuming you used a rattle can of lacquer - they're hard to get an even finish with and the larger the surface being sprayed, the more difficult it becomes. I don't use water based poly very often so I'm not overly familiar with it Most coatings will raise the wood grain some. Sanding the 1st coat smooth usually eliminates or reduces the amount of raised grain. After a couple of coats the coating shouldn't raise the grain anymore. How many coats do you have on the trouble spots? You could sand it smooth with 220 and then use furniture polish to take away the scuff marks from sanding.If you do this, the polish must be removed if any more poly [or any other coating] is to be applied!! I use oil based poly, so not much familiarity with the polycrylic. Rattle cans tend to only provide very thin coats compared to brushing on the material. yes it was rattle can. unfortunately I do not have a sprayer-although have been considering on for spraying all my trimwith paint (fluted molding,rosettes, plinth blocks, baseboard) but just didn't seem to find anything that had good reviews and reasonably priced since I am not going to be doing this as profession. and wasn't sure if they even spray the latex acrylic paint I have. on the lacquer, I would say I have about 5 coats brushed on, then sanded with 220 to get out all those brush marks, then put about 3 coats of spray. due to the uneven finish (in sheen) I then lightly sanded with 220 and used steel wool. on the poly, I would say I have about 4 coats. any idea on durability comparison for poly vs lacquer? this is fireplace mantle and once up, it will no be able to be taken down to work on anymore. if it got damaged scratches etc., I could brush on more finish, but spraying would not be option. so +1 for the poly there since brushing on the lacquer (especially for final coat) not really working for me. I think poly is more durable but lacquer is easier to apply if you have the equipment, since no sanding is required between coats like with poly (poly cures whereas lacquer dries, which means the new coat of lacquer re-wets the surface and bonds the coats together but poly must be sanded to rough up the surface and create greater surface area between the old and new coats). Lacquer is more of a shop based coating. It has a quick turn around time and as mentioned it works best when sprayed. While I've sprayed a little lacquer and have used the old fashioned shellac a time or two, varnish or poly is what I normally use over stained [or natural] wood. I've always been able to get a nice finish with oil base varnish/poly, only use water based poly on rare occasions. Thanks, Mark - I didn't say that well: a shop is going to have the equipment for spraying lacquer, that's why most commercially made furniture will have a lacquer finish on it but us DIY guys tend to use polyurethane. I've seen heads you can buy for rattle cans that will give you a wide flat spray pattern like a pro gun vs. the round dot pattern of the rattle can. They may make it easier to apply. Never tried it though. You also have to understand that the heat makes it more difficult to spray. It can dry before it gets to the surface or dru before the finish has time to flow out evenly. I've used polycrylic around my house with great success. I used the first time over ten years ago on a project for my brother. I did get bubbles in the finish, but that was because I was dragging the brush across the edge of the can. I have not had the problem since. I make sure I do as the pros and touch the side of the brush to the inside of the can. Another possibility is that you are putting the finish on too thick. When that happens, you form a skin on the surface and the gases below have trouble escaping and form bubbles. I also recommend using a quality brush. I've been using Purdy. Probably not the world's best, but way better than a lot of stuff. IMO Purdy is one of the best brush manufactures! I wasn't aware that you could by the tip/head separately but I have used a rattle can from time to time that had a tip that put out a fan spray pattern instead of the standard round rattle can pattern - it does make using a rattle can easier! Yeah, I saw it one of the big box st ores one time. It has a big trigger on it like it was a pro spray gun. I went to try and find it. Maybe I'm wrong about it changing the spray pattern. I saw a bunch that just attach to the can and presses on the spray head already there. Now sure what exactly to search for. the spray on lacquer I got does have head that lets you change spray pattern from either horizontal oval or vertical oval. I have one of those attachments somewhere that you put on the can and it just pushes on the head that is already there. not sure if it really does much. funny I told my wife that the piece I did with lacquer looks like store bought furniture, so not surprising that is what is often used. read that professionals often use it, but doesn't really seem to be that it is any better-just easier. the spray on I got can be recoated in 30 min! not sure how long if you are spraying using HVLP and a gallon container? no sanding between coats needed. so it is much faster, which is important if you are a pro and need to get it out to customer. but that doesn't make it any better. I have read that polyurethane is a more durable finish. how does polycrylic stack up? I would try the oil based polyurethane, but concerned about the slight discoloration/ambering. although this is jacobean stain (dark) on red oak so maybe it wouldn't matter anyway. and don't know if the bubbling would be any different with the oil based poly vs the water based? tried another coat using all pointers here and still with some bubbles? thinking of trying foam brush next? Lacquer still needs sanding but only if the grain has raised or some trash got in the finish I'd be hesitant to suggest oil base mainly because I wouldn't want all that many types of finish on the wood. I detest foam brushes but there are those that like them. You might try thinning the polycrylic a tad and see if that might eliminate the bubbles. Water based polys aren't as durable as the oil base but it's not like you're going to walk on the mantel or open and close it several times a day In addition to Marksr's comments, I'd also suggest you brush it on in the coolest location possible, in the shade or whatever. If it's hot and humid where you are working, that's probably 99% of the problem. I second marksr's opinion of foam brushes. They are the absolute LAST thing you'd want to use since they INTRODUCE air into the finish. The uses for foam brushes are few and far between. I'd probably use a Wooster china bristle brush. It's a decent mid-low quality brush meant for oil based finishes... but since yours is latex you might be better off with a synthetic bristle brush. I have multiple pieces and each piece will only have one side visible (mantle is being built in 2 layers) so I do not have multiple types of clear on any given surface. the bottom of bottom layer, which will be visible but only about 4 x 5', was done with lacquer. The grain did not raise at all and I put it near window with a fan running outward to create sort of negative pressue to reduce chance of getting debris in it and I did not have anything in finish. now the top of this board, which will not be visible, I practiced with the polycrylic. it seemed to work fine, without bubbles. but that side was not sanded and just stained and it was very dark-not like the other side where I sanded and then stained. not sure why it came out almost black? so hard to really see how the finish looked. So on the bottom of top layer (which will not be visible) I practiced and sanded, stained, then used poly. did not notice any bubbles in first several coats but then did. maybe brush bad now? but the area I am doing is so small and takes so little time and I clean it immedately afterward so don't see how it could have gotten ruined. I have to decide do the last and most important piece-top of the top piece. I suppose I would just add water to the poly? or something like floetrol? I put polycrilic on my mantel 3 years ago. Holding up fine. I have had it on my makeshift desk for about 2 years and it is doing well there. Water should be fine, you don't want to thin it a lot, just enough so it flows better. XSleeper made a good point about applying the poly in the sun or extreme heat! Thinning the poly a little will help but a better place to work would be better. I wouldn't use a china bristle [or any natural bristle] brush with water based poly - they are allergic to water If the polycrylic doesn't ruin the brush, washing it with water will. thanks all. I am doing this inside so temp/humidity not factor.
Related Posts:
Poly finish on stair treads scratches very easily
Poly finish on stair treads scratches very easilyI purchased a jug of expensive water based polyurethane from Richilieu (about $125) that contractors generally would use (from bad experience I wan...
Lacquer selfleveling epoxy
Lacquer? (Self-leveling Epoxy)Hi, I recentely made a table out of a 4x8 sheet of ply-wood. I then covered the top in rows of collected beer bottle caps. Now I'm trying to figure out what would be...
Poor advice destroyed my floors
(Poor advice) destroyed my floors.I sanded my wood floors with total perfection. Even going to a hand sander scrubbing for a week to get everything perfect. I then went to Home Depot asked what I...
Programmable hot water tank
Programmable Hot Water TankWould anyone know if they make a programmable switch to turn on and off a hot water tank. 240Volts and 4500 watts of max power. I live in an area with smart meters and w...
Painting melamine kitchen cabinet doors
Painting melamine kitchen cabinet doorsHey guys, I'm renovating my kitchen and would like to keep my cabinets. Problem is they are dated. They are the classic melamine (I believe) covered doors. W...
